Transcript: Mayor de Blasio Appears on "Inside City Hall" on NY1

June 30, 2015

Errol Louis: So, thank you for spending some time for us, Mr. Mayor.

Mayor Bill de Blasio: My pleasure.

Errol Louis: We’re at the end of a tumultuous session up in Albany. How did the city do? How did the mayor do? How did your agenda do?

Mayor: Well, look – I’m pleased that we made real progress in some of the areas that are crucial to affordable housing for millions of New Yorkers. Obviously, we got an improvement in the rent law. It’s about – substantial improvement – it’s enough to protect about 50,000 units of affordable housing from leaving affordability over the next decade – that’s real progress. There’s more to be done – there’s no doubt about that. And we will continue that fight. But that was tangible improvement for a lot of New Yorkers. On the 421-a issue – news of 421-a’s demise was greatly exaggerated, and, obviously, a real solution was found at the end of the session, which means we’ll be able to create tens of thousands more units of affordable housing. We’re going to end giveaways to developers who don’t create any affordability. So that’s real progress. I think that was a game changer. Look – there are other areas where I’m not satisfied. I think mayoral control is an example of a decision that really is just not justifiable on the part of the governor and the Senate. It’s not believable that, after Michael Bloomberg got seven years for mayoral control of education in the first case and then a six-year extension – why on earth would the city of New York, now led by a Democratic and progressive mayor, suddenly only get a one-year extension? I think that is a negative mark on Albany. I hasten to add, the Assembly and Speaker Heastie were consistently productive, substantive, passed real legislation, lead the action. But they – I certainly don’t believe the Assembly had a real working partner in the governor or the Senate, in terms of getting things done for the people of this city and, in many cases, the people of the state.

Errol Louis: Well, now, the Senate is not necessarily supposed to be the partner of the Assembly – that’s why there are two houses. But it surprises me to hear you say that about the governor. I mean, he is, after all, a Democrat. He did run with your endorsement, and with the active support of many members of the Assembly. What – what would – why would it be in his interest not to help the Assembly move its agenda?

Mayor: The governor offered a set of ideas when he ran, and obviously we haven’t seen a lot of those ideas play out. But I think the fact is, he has a close working relationship with the Senate. And I think, in many instances, he led the action in Albany, and I think he encouraged some of what the Senate did. I think it’s a pretty open fact in Albany that Leader Flanagan was taking the governor’s lead on a number of issues. And I want to hasten to say, there was some interesting back-and-forth last week, and some unnamed sources well-placed in the Cuomo administration had a few things to say. I’m here in front of you, on record, saying what I believe. And what I believe happened here is the governor working with the Senate, in some cases, to inhibit the work of the Assembly – to inhibit the agenda of that New York City put forward. 421-a, I think, is the obvious example. We worked for months to come up with a plan that would really greatly intensify our ability to create affordable housing for New Yorkers. It included, for the first time ever, a requirement of affordability anytime that tax credit was utilized by a developer. It said we were no longer going to subsidize luxury condos. We included the mansion tax, asking those who purchase high-value homes to give a little more, so that we could create more affordable housing. That total package would have reached 160,000 people. We worked with housing advocates. We worked with the real estate community. We got to a balance point that was achievable. It was good policy – by any normal measure, it should have found a lot of support in Albany. Literally, within days of announcing the vision, the governor was trying to shoot it down very overtly and suggesting it was not a viable plan – it was presented too late. Well, the final negotiations on 421-a happened over a day or two. We presented the plan months ago. It was achieved in a matter of days, so clearly it was not presented too late.

Errol Louis: Well, when I hear “too late” – and this is not just the governor, but from other political leaders – I take that as a euphemism for, you should have come and gotten my blessing before you went and announced this. Is that – the [inaudible]?

Mayor: No, I think it was a smokescreen. I think it was an effort to undermine the outcome. For whatever internal machinations – whatever strategies the governor was playing at – rather than saying, look, I have some disagreements here, or some things I’d like to change, which would have been the productive thing to do, he publicly attacked the plan. He suggested it was not viable, [inaudible] it was viable. And he actually helped to encourage the opposition [inaudible]. I find that to be a lack of [inaudible] – because here was an opportunity to actually get something done for the people. And, you know, the argument that the Senate and the Assembly couldn’t get on the same page – we knew within days of presenting the vision, from the feedback that we heard from the Senate and Assembly, that, of course, a lot of them were ready to act on this issue. And the proof is in the pudding. We got a substantial outcome – not all we wanted, but something that will help to achieve tens of thousands of units of affordable housing, and ends, finally, a lot of taxpayer giveaways to developers. 

Errol Louis: And do you regard that issue as closed? Is 421-a set as far as, say, for the rest of your term in office, or are there going to be other adjustments?

Mayor: There’s more work to be done because obviously there’s some limitations [inaudible]. I think it’s a good, strong start. I think the mansion tax is an issue we obviously need to come back to.

Errol Louis: And when the governor says that it would have been your original plan of the giveaway to developers – part of your response was, and part of the debate became about, whether or not prevailing wage should be, sort of, added to the whole equation. Where does that question stand?

Mayor: Well, first of all, I don’t think the governor was sincere when he said it would be a giveaway to developers when we were in fact demanding a lot more of developers. And we were going to – for the first time – require affordability at any time the tax credit was used. We were going to end tax credits for luxury condos. Let’s face it – this governor signed a previous bill that was part of that problem – and we were going to give them something different. He could have embraced it. He could have seen it as the reform it was. So, I think the fact is that we achieved something that really changes the playing field in terms of affordable housing, and demands more from developers. When I ran for this office I said one of the things the city would do in our dealings with developers is we would drive a harder bargain, and we would demand more from them on account of the public. Well, that also had to be done by Albany, and this legislation finally does it. 

Errol Louis: Well – explain this to us. There’s been a lot of commentary about your relationship with the governor, for whom you used to work in a different capacity, and different agency, and in a different time. How is it that you kind of missed each other on something like this? You know – I mean, it’s – on one level, it’s your team going up to talk to his team about 421-a, or whatever else. But there’s also – you know, I’m sure you have each other’s phone numbers and can talk about this, then. Why can’t that happen? Why doesn’t it happen?

Mayor: I think the question is, what is the substantive agenda? You know, I came forward and said in the beginning – mayoral control of education benefits 1.2 million schoolchildren, and obviously their millions of family members. It’s a known fact. We’ve had this system in place now for well over a decade and there is no other alternative. Going back to the old school board system would take us back literally to chaos and corruption. It seems to me that the governor could have taken that reality and said, I’m going to lead on this, I’m going to make sure this happens. Again, it’s an open secret that he has extraordinary influence over the Republican Senate. And here was a chance to say, this is just a matter of good government. A lot of people are depending on this. New York City and New York State are being watched here as a question of us being able to show we’re leaders, that we’re making decisions for substantive reasons, that we’re consistent. Michael Bloomberg came in – seven years, originally, for mayoral control – renewed for six more – suddenly it goes to one year? That reeks of politics and game playing. And I would think the governor wouldn’t want that to happen on his watch. But what I found was, he engaged in his own sense of strategies, his own political machinations. And what we’ve often seen is, if someone disagrees with him openly, some kind of revenge or vendetta follows. And I think too many people in this state have gotten used to that pattern and thrown a bit by it. But I think more and more of us are saying we’re just not going to be party to that anymore. It’s time to get back to the substance. Rent control affected over two million New Yorkers. The affordable housing plan we put forward with 421-a would have created affordable housing for 160,000 people. Anybody who wants to do good government and wants to address some of the previous failings of Albany would, I think, want to embrace those kind of reforms and changes. But, in my many efforts to find some common ground, suspiciously it seemed that every good idea got rejected or manipulated.

Errol Louis: When you bring up politics, our good friend – your good friend, Bill Clinton, has a great saying where he said you could take the politics out of a lot of things, but you can’t take the politics out of politics. When Mayor de Blasio endorsed the notion of putting a Democratic majority into the State Senate, surely that angered a lot of members of the Senate – who now are indeed the leadership, who have a role to say in extending mayoral control or a lot of other initiatives that you have to deal with. Putting aside the governor’s role into that, there’s some political payback there as well, right? 

Mayor: I think that has been a conventional wisdom. I think it’s a mistake. One – all over this country, all over this state, people are used to the fact that during election season, Democrats act like Democrats and Republicans act like Republicans. And when the election’s over and people are joined together in government, they have to get something done. Go to Capitol Hill, go to state capitals all over the country –people recognize if you’re the Democratic mayor of the biggest city in your state, of course you’re going to work for your fellow Democrats. I don’t think that’s at all surprising.  So I think that became convenient conventional wisdom in Albany – oh, look at these senators with a chip their shoulder. What I found, in talking to a number of these senators, was – sure, they want to defend their political prerogatives, but a lot of them actually understood the rationale for mayoral control.  They had voted for it enthusiastically before.  I think they could have found their way to a longer term of mayoral control.  I think a lot of them obviously believe the 421-a reforms made sense – proof’s in the pudding, they voted for them, ultimately. So, no, there’s a lot more going on here. And I think we can’t suggest that, because people stand by their own party – I was proud to stand by the Democratic party, I’m a proud Democrat, I’m a consistent Democrat, I think we should all be consistent Democrats – that doesn’t for a moment suggest you can’t work together when the smoke clears from an election on substantive issues. And we’ve got to get by that. If this is a state of people of unable to work together because they’re in different parties, well then, we’re in a lot more trouble than I think we are.

Errol Louis: Well, it sounds like we are in some trouble, because when mayoral control has to be renewed again next year, you’ll be in the middle of an election season, when – if, you know, according to what you just suggested, you’ll be out working for Democrats and so forth.  And the Senate Republicans will once again say, hey, this is an existential threat to us – we lose control of this House, we lose an important foothold in government, period, throughout New York State. This something we’re fighting for – let’s make this part of the discussion about mayoral control.  Is that out of bounds?
Mayor: It’s absolutely out of bounds.  If they want to hang onto their leadership in the State Senate – well, go fight that fight.  Go run campaigns and, you know, achieve a lot in the legislative session to show people that you achieved a lot.  That’s what you’re supposed to do – not hold hostage 1.2 million kids. Let’s be real. This is, an example of an Albany cultural phenomenon that we should reject.  Again, I commend the Assembly because they did serious work consistently. You never had to wonder what they stood for and they didn’t play your games, like the others played.  That was actually an example of government. If Albany has such a bad reputation, [inaudible] because so much of the time, it’s not about government.  The governor’s the leader, the governor sets the tone, the governor convenes the meetings, the governor has to change this reality.  If we go next year into a repeat for something that is as fundamental as mayoral control of education – agreed on in this city by an extraordinary cross-section of New Yorkers, business and labor, Democrats and Republicans – there’s as much of a consensus on the value of mayoral control of education as almost any issue we have.  It’s one of the few areas where a lot of people come together. And there is a very strong consensus that the past, with the schools boards, literally equaled chaos and corruption in too many cases.  I would think the governor would not want to be identified with stepping away from that consensus on which we made on education in the city and reform of education in the city.  And if he continues, and the Senate continues, to politicize this issue and make it a political football, I think it will ultimately be harmful.

Errol Louis: You’re in the most – the second-most powerful executive position in the country right now, but put yourself back in the shoes of a legislator, which you did for, you know, for over a decade. There are – it’s just a reality of legislating – right – that everything is traded for everything else. You can trade parks funding for education prerogatives, you can trade health programs for criminal justice programs.  That’s sort of the nature of it. It’s famously somewhat ugly to look at, maybe a little uglier in Albany than in most places.  It sounds like you want some carve-outs from that ­– that there should be some exceptions for –

Mayor: No, I respectfully disagree with the entire premise of the question.  It is true that, in the history of legislative bodies, there has been horse trading and some of that is – I guess you could say – human nature, and some of that was absolutely inappropriate and illegitimate, and we should reject that kind of horse trading.  And I have been very clear about that – that some things should not be on the table together – they make no sense together.  What does rent control have to do with the education tax credit?  How on earth on are those two things in the same discussion? The Assembly agreed strongly on that point. I think the editorial boards and observers across the spectrum agreed that there was something wrong. That’s the kind of thing that happens in Albany that should stop happening.  Albany needs to change. But beyond that, I think you’re missing the fact that a lot of what happens in legislative bodies is the result of the voice of the people. We went up to Albany on pre-K last year. I was told a thousand times it was not viable to win [inaudible] what I thought would have been the best option. But we won, in large measure because there was so much of an outcry here in the city demanding it. And obviously the results of the election the year before made that quite clear. And that affected the legislative process. I think you’re seeing all over the country on a host of issues right now – the voices of the people are changing the minds of legislators. Some out of reasons of conscience, others because they feel the world shifting beneath them – they see the [inaudible] on the wall, and they want to catch up with their constituencies. Somehow – I would argue, the best hand to play is to mobilize the people. We did that on rent regulation as well, and that was part of why, I think, some progress was made. But I’m not going to give in to the Albany culture, and suggest if you don’t have something to trade, well then, there’s nothing to gain. So, mayoral control of education – that everyone agrees is fundamental to reform, that got approved twice for long term with Albany – it’s acceptable that it only got one year, because there wasn’t something to trade for it? If that’s the status of New York State government, we’re in a pretty degraded state, and we have a lot of reforms that [inaudible].

Errol Louis: Does Governor Cuomo subscribe to that sort of logic, do you think? No – [inaudible].

Mayor: I think he believes deeply in the transactional model, and I think he needs to transcend that model if he wants to be a more effective leader.

Errol Louis: It – well, does he run the risk of being out of step with what you say is – are – is sort of the trends in his state?

Mayor: I think anybody who’s only focused on transactions – and not leadership, and taking the voices of the people and amplifying them, and working for a bigger vision – transactionality is a trap. It effectively means you’re going to work within the status quo. If all that’s being traded is what different interest groups want, you’re not going to go very far. Leaders are supposed to be transcendent figures. They’re supposed to talk about where we need to go and what changes we need to make. And, by the way, if you look around the country, I think the public deeply believes in that motto. I think the public is right now demanding that all of us, for example, that we address income equality – and you saw the whole New York Times-CBS poll a couple weeks back that made that extraordinarily clear. The pundits were trying to say, this is a side matter, a small matter – no. When we actually got a look at the voice of the people, they were demanding much sharper solutions. I guarantee you that’s now going to filter into the minds of a million elected officials, and you’ll see different approaches. But really, what the public would like to see is forceful leadership with clear values, and less horse trading, and less domination by special interests.

Errol Louis: Well, last question on Albany – have you now set yourself on a collision course with the governor with these – with this kind of analysis and these kind of public comments?

Mayor: No, I’m calling for the work of government to begin – that we actually do substantive work together on real issues. I’d like to work from the assumption on something like mayoral control of education – where there’s consensus on its value – that it would be natural to be allied to get something good done for our state. I will remind you – you know, the – the 1.2 million schoolchildren of this state – that’s a huge part of the population – and this city [inaudible] a huge part of the population of the state. Any governor should be concerned about the welfare of those 1.2 million kids. Any governor should want to fight hard to make sure that the school governance system of this city – the biggest city in the country – is working as well as it can. And would any governor want to be on the watch that let mayoral control lapse for a [inaudible]? So, I – I’m ready to work with this governor, this Senate, anyone in Albany on substantive issues. I’m not ready to play the Albany game.

Errol Louis: Okay. Let me ask you about what happened at the Rent Guidelines Board, where there’s been this [inaudible] a zero increase for one-year leases, two percent for two-year leases. And, I was curious as to – I mean, this was something that you’d said you pretty much wanted – that, in your opinion, a freeze would have been in order. I’m a homeowner. You’re a homeowner. You know the costs go up all the time. The water bills never go down. The insurance bills rarely go down. The taxes always go up. Landlords really are going to have some increased costs, which they cannot now – which they’re going have to absorb with the zero percent increase.

Mayor: I think that’s not the whole story. I think the Rent Guidelines Board did a very, very good job looking at all the facts. The cost of fuel went down sharply over the last year or two, and that was also part of the equation. When they composited all of the costs, they found that that decision – that zero – was the right decision economically. And, in fact, in some previous years, landlords were given too high an increase, compared to their actual costs. So, what we’re doing for the first time in almost a half century is – we’re saying, let’s actually go by the numbers, and not have the fix in for one special interest, but actually go by the numbers. And the numbers say, it was time for a rent freeze. Next year, there will be a different set of numbers. And we’re going to judge by those numbers – whatever the actual reality is. If, God forbid, costs go up a lot, then there would have to be a greater increase in rent. But, when you actually composite all the factors this last year, there was no reason for a rent increase.

Errol Louis: So, if you move from the average to individual cases, do you accept the premise that there will be at least some landlords for whom this is going to mean the difference between profit and loss?

Mayor: When you’re making policy – in this case, for about – I think it’s 1.2 million tenants affected by this immediate decision, because their lease is [inaudible] this year – you have to think about what’s right for the vast majority. I can’t speak to each and every case, obviously. But this is the right policy for the city. It’s the right policy for the tenants of this city, because it actually fairly judged the cost. And – look, in the past, it’s quite clear that was not the only consideration. It kind of parallels the Albany discussion. In the past, there was a bias to the landlord position. And even if the expenses didn’t warrant it, in some cases the increases were greater than the actual expense plan. We’re not going to do that anymore. We want a fair process that takes into account all the factors. And when that says there should be a zero increase, it’s going to be a zero. Now, I’m proud of the fact that this Rent Guidelines Board voted the facts and voted their consciences, and came up with something that – thank God – will also provide relief to so many New Yorkers who are struggling [inaudible].

Errol Louis: So – so when landlords say, hey, look, it’s your water board that’s increasing the water rates – which is for some back door tax. It’s your assessment that always has the, sort of, tax brackets move up, so that they’re going to have to pay more. And then to turn around and say, well, there really wasn’t an increase, so you’re going to have to absorb all of these higher costs, because they’re offset by fuel or something like that. Will it discourage people from thinking that maybe they want to be a landlord?

Mayor: No, I think it’s quite clear that real estate in New York City right now is extraordinarily lucrative, and it’s only going to get stronger. So I don’t think there’s any problem there. Assessments have gone up, because property values have gone up. And we’ve seen it year after year. We are trying to fix the issue with the water rates, because there’s a problem there. And in fact, some of the water rate went to uses that I didn’t think were appropriate, and we are steadily cutting that [inaudible]. We provide a lot of relief [inaudible] the budget [inaudible]. But no, we’re compositing all of the costs. And when you composite all of the costs, this is the [inaudible].

Errol Louis: Let me switch to criminal justice. Last year, and again this year, there was a difference between this side of the building and the City Council side of the building over new cops. The City Council said we need a thousand new cops, you said we need zero new cops. You arrived at a compromise of 1,300 new cops. How did – how did that happen?

Mayor: A lot of factors went into it, and a lot of it happened between the time of the Executive Budget – which was May 7th – and when we came to our agreement a few days ago. First – look, the Council is my partner in government. And every year, we look at a variety of factors. They were very consistent about their belief that this would be a fundamental investment in the future, and I had to weigh that as part of the process – even though my views and concerns were well known. Second, as I talked to Commissioner Bratton and his team, I made it clear to them that I had to think about the long term fiscal health of the city. And if we were going to move forward with a new proposal for [inaudible] the force, we had to have some very substantial and sustainable cost savings. We found that with the highest level of civilianization we’ve ever reached. We found that with, for the first time ever, a public and transparent overtime cap. When fully implemented, that takes us to about $70 million dollar in savings a year – we’ve never had that before. And so, that was a big x-factor for me. Finally, Commissioner Bratton, as you know, over the last year and a half, was reevaluating the entire department – trying to figure out what made sense in the future [inaudible]. Over the last few weeks, we had a series of meetings where he really went into detail about what he found, and why he believed we had a moment that could be transformative in terms of finally reaching neighborhood policing – something that many of us wanted to see for decades but never got realized. And I made the conclusion that his proposal was very worthy, that it actually was that moment where we could reach that fundamental change, and bring the police and community together. It could buy a lot of cost savings as part of the package. And the Council will obviously continue to make it a priority – the pieces came together. Plus, of course, 350 or so of that number were for something else which has become very timely – we wouldn’t have necessarily talked about a week or two ago. The Critical Response Vehicles – our anti-terrorism effort – create a distinct, defined, well trained, well-armed, critical response force – not borrowing officers from precincts, but actually having a defined additional anti-terror capacity. That was something that I thought was perfect for the times we’re living in, and that was another part of this package.

Errol Louis:  Also, on public safety, when it comes to sort of ramping up the – changing the new – implementing the new policing strategies that Bratton has talked about, there’s this issue out there that nobody likes to talk about, which is this 1 million outstanding arrest warrants that are essentially like rolling dice. You know, it will be essentially the luck of the draw. The warrant squad – even if you doubled it – there’s no way they’re going to work through that backlog. Is there a plan to address that? Because all the new policing in the world will still leave people sort of vulnerable. Being picked up for whatever – in some cases, you know, walking the dog without a leash two years ago and forgetting to show to up to – to resolve the charge.

Mayor: Yeah, a lot of good work is happening right now between the City Council, my office, and the Police Department to determine reform in that area. Now, they’re obviously in [inaudible]. We all know that for warrants for serious crime ­– violent crime, [inaudible] – under any scenario, keep those active. But there are a lot of low-level crimes where we may have an opportunity to create some reform. And we’ve got to be very smart about the definitions and how we [inaudible]. So, good beginning – we don’t have a formal proposal yet, but I think we’re on a good path.

Errol Louis: Okay. Finally, in our last minute, you’re heading out of town, you’re going on vacation. It seems to be some sort of deep, dark secret about where you’re going, but you’re kind of distinctive. You’ve been on TV a lot, kind of tall. I have this vision of you trying to blend in at Yellowstone National Park or something like that. I don’t know if that’s going to work.

Mayor: The Bermuda shorts and –

Errol Louis:  Yeah, yeah.

Mayor: The Bermuda shirt.

[Laughter]

Errol Louis: The son with the afro. Everybody kind of looks at you and says, I think I know that guy.

Mayor: Yeah. Well, this is going to be a family vacation. Last year, we had a wonderful time in Italy. It was obviously filled with official events. And it was an extraordinary moment for our family ­– going to my grandparents’ hometowns – and very moving and very powerful for all of us. This year we are going to go a little more traditional. We’re just going to do the family vacation. It’s just for us. Obviously, you know, this is a special moment in our family, as the empty nest begins in August, and Chirlane and I are acclimating to that. So, we’re really looking forward to time with Chiara and Dante. And it’s going to be very low key, and I am going west [inaudible].

Errol Louis: [Laughter] Okay, the low-key part, I’m just loving. I just picture you guys in an RV with, like, a security detail, you know, with the sirens going, rolling down the highway.

Mayor: I think Chevy Chase would play me in the movie.

Errol Louis:  Very low-key. 

[Laughter]

Errol Louis:  And as far as the empty nest are you keeping room for the kids or –

Mayor: Oh, yes.

Errol Louis: Stretching out in the manor?

Mayor: Many parents have said to me the empty nest doesn’t last very long.

Errol Louis: Well, this is true.

Mayor: So, we will be prepared at all times and they will be always welcome in our home.

Errol Louis:  Keep the laundry room ready and the snacks –

Mayor: Laundry –

Errol Louis:  Yes.

Mayor: Home cooked meals – a lot of things that draw them home.

Errol Louis: Very good. Enjoy your vacation. Thanks for spending some time with us.

Mayor: Thank you, thank you very much.